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Date:      Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:38:38 +0400
From:      "Andrey A. Chernov" <ache@nagual.pp.ru>
To:        Mikhail Teterin <mi+kde@aldan.algebra.com>
Cc:        i18n@FreeBSD.ORG, Maxim Sobolev <sobomax@FreeBSD.ORG>, anholt@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: koi8-r is obsoleted by koi8-u (Re: cvs commit: ports/x11-fonts/XFree86-4-fontCyrillic)
Message-ID:  <20020905043838.GA38406@nagual.pp.ru>
In-Reply-To: <200209050018.15176@aldan>
References:  <200209031042.g83AgFON078508@freefall.freebsd.org> <200209041155.15033.mi%2Bmx@aldan.algebra.com> <20020905021640.GA37309@nagual.pp.ru> <200209050018.15176@aldan>

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On Thu, Sep 05, 2002 at 00:18:15 -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote:

> provide the entire KOI8-R, the X11 does not and thus no app will rely on it.
> I understand the compatibility issues, and I know, that no vendor would write 
> an application, that uses those special characters -- because of, uhm, 
> compatibility issues...

Applications which follow standards will do.

> 	. You make an incomplete set of "good enough", but not standard compliant
> 	  KOI8-R fonts (see quote below) available at your web-site and send them to
> 	  XFree86, pretending/implying that
> 		. the fonts you distribute are KOI8-R
> 		. KOI8-R *IS* Cyrillic
> 	  Practicality rules -- standards be damned -- we need to be able to
> 	  read/write in Russian!

I treat Cyrillic as superset, so KOI8-R is Cyrillic too. BTW, I not insist 
on such calling strictly. If XFree86 name it fontRussian, it will be nice 
for me too.

> 	. You are perfectly comfortable with XFree86 distributing those fonts as
> 	  KOI8-R ones and "KOI8-R" as "Cyrillic", even after
> 		. the KOI8-U is introduced (you even helped them with the RFC, so you *knew*
> 		  about it)
> 		. after the more updated KOI8-R fonts became available elsewhere;

Yes. I have nothing against KOI8-U, KOI8-C etc. IN ADDITION to KOI8-R.

> 	. Although it may be difficult to reach the right person at the XFree86
> 	  project (you did succeed once), you did not even bother to make sure the
> 	  FreeBSD's XFree86 ports use the correct fonts and names -- for YEARS --
> 	  until Maxim improved the present situation... Now, all of a sudden,
> 	  standards suddenly started to matter and practical issues such as
> 	  diskspace and X-server's memory stopped...

As I already say, both Cyrillic and Russian naming of KOI8-R are nice for 
me, so I don't bother.

> = ISO 8859-15 differs from ISO 8859-1 only by 8 characters and is "modern",
> = but nobody suggest to silently replace ISO 8859-1 fonts with 8859-15 fonts
> = everywhere and so on.
> 
> I would suggest just that -- if no application really uses those 8 characters.

Yes, there are rarely used positions which are changed.

> I'm not certain that's the case, though. But I'm certain about it with koi8-r 
> vs. koi8-u (or -c).

There is no differences koi8-r vs. koi8-u and 8859-1 vs. 8859-15 in the 
matter we discuss.

> And lack of counterexamples from you implies, that you are too. The 

Counterexamples are easy, f.e. FIDO newsgroups gated whcih use full 
KOI8-R pseudographics.

> Sometimes a standard is discarded even without a formal replacement -- even in 
> FreeBSD (tcp_drop_synfin, for example). This particular standard -- koi8-r -- 
> was introduced by you, and it increasingly looks like your personal 
> attachment to it is affecting your judgement.

koi8-r is not called back or discarded, it means it will stay forever. If 
you are not happy with koi8-r - make your own standard and tell people to 
use it.

--
Andrey A. Chernov
http://ache.pp.ru/

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