Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:15:13 -0400 (EDT) From: spork <spork@super-g.com> To: "Jeffrey J. Mountin" <sysop@mixcom.com> Cc: Vincent Poy <vince@mail.MCESTATE.COM>, isp@freebsd.org Subject: Re: TS Holy War (was Re: Some advice needed.) Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970412160403.2196C-100000@super-g.inch.com> In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970412020711.00c98818@mixcom.com>
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I've been working at an ISP for a year and a half now (which I guess isn't all that long...) and I do chuckle somewhat upon looking at this thread. The number one thing I've learned so far is to not trust anyone's estimates of cost/time that you will expend making everything work. *NO matter WHAT* the customer base is assumed to be, you need tech support people. We have some very intelligent customers that know a whole bunch about their own networks and machines that call up with *very* stupid questions... The reason is that the ISP business is a service business first and foremost before it's a technical biz. Ask anyone who's making money. I used to have to field calls, and even now, I'll be working along on schedule and get some panicked customer going nuts that pulls me off of a project and ruins my day. We started with absolute crap equipment (not my choice, BTW) and it came very close to bringing the company down. Your competition can afford real modems and term servers that connect 99% of the time and give a nice healthy thruput. You need that too. Any luser can see if ISP A is "faster" than ISP B with no technical knowledge involved. Stand alone modems are a fast ticket to troubleshooting hell. As for servers, seperate everything from the get-go. Put mail on one machine, shell on another, and web on another. I was around for a migration from one machine to 12, and it wasn't pretty; in fact it was a customer service nightmare.... I guess the bottom line is, if you're doing this as a business, have the $$ (or a nice leasing program ;) and spare no expense where reliability is concerned. Buy good modems (that will hopefully support some 56K crap that your users will be calling about every day), use a solid OS like FBSD, get Seagate drives, and go with the stand alone router (not so much for performance, but to learn the Cisco IOS so you can talk intelligently with other router-heads)... There's more, but jeez, someone could write a book... Charles On Sat, 12 Apr 1997, Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote: > At 05:49 PM 4/11/97 -0700, Vincent Poy wrote: > >> $3k/month T1 to net > > $1.45k/month T1 to the backbone > > Not bad is that port and line cost? Port being your provider and line for > what you pay the telco (in case you don't know :). > > >> $325/month per PRI(or $410 per 23 analog lines) > > Not sure about this one. > > Check on this, as well a channelized T1, which may be signifcantly cheaper. > > >> $1000/month office space, etc.(rent, utilities) > > We don't need this since it's already a audio business. > > One... > > >> $5k+ employees. You save on this if you go with no help, but it sucks. > >> = $9k/month expenses without leasing equipment. > > Everyone who works is part of the company's ownership so this > >eliminates that part. > > Make that 2 advantages. > > >> Startup equipment: > >> > >> $17k Max 4000. > > What is a Max 4000? > > Uh, I won't comment, except to say that you should consider Livington PM3 > units and they have an excellent leasing program. Similar price, fully > loaded. The 4000 is outdated and is replaced by the 4004, so you > definately DO NOT want it. > > >> $1500 Cisco 2501. > > Doesn't a Cisco 2501 cost more than $1500? A FreeBSD based PC > >with a ET card costs about the same I think or should be less. > > Or you could get a 1005, which has only 1 serial port. The price is right > and IHMO a stand along router and not a PC-cum-router is the way to go. > > >> $???? computers/servers(at least 1, call it $2k per) > >> = $20k startup. You really need more, i.e. seperate news/mail/web. > > Hmmm, can't the mail, web be the same machine while news is on > >a dedicated machine? > > Certainly! Best way to start. Why admin several machines, but I would > recommend that you have a spare server and update/mirror it. > > > >> Of course, I _might_ be inflating the number here. It was actually > >> considerably more expensive to do this two years ago.. But I'm not > >> considering startup costs for the T1 or PRI. > > Oh okay, are the costs of T1 lines going up or down these days? > > Hard to say, but setup fees are generally over $2000 and contracts are > cheaper for longer term contracts. > > > >> No. We pay $325/month/PRI with no "per usage" pricing. The hitch is it's > >> incoming only, but I think we'll live. Outgoing is $.05/minute. > > So it works more like a business analog line then, paying for > >outgoing but incoming is still free. > > Depending on where you are the outgoing may be per minute or FOC, but > outgoing may not be a big factor. > > > >> That's my argument about using BSD boxes. They're cheaper to start up > >> with. When you get to the point that $14000 doesn't phase you, THEN you > >> get the big boxes. > > How much cheaper are BSD boxes compared to the big boxes? > > Much! A person a one local company sneered at us and another provider > about us not having a Sun, let alone an Ultra. My thought was "all rev'd > up, but going nowhere" for the cost and customer base size they had. > > IMHO, term servers are good for dial-in shell access. > > Since you have the space and personnel, the biggest thing is to build a > customer base. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Jeff Mountin - System/Network Administrator > jeff@mixcom.net > > MIX Communications > Serving the Internet since 1990 >
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