Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:39:12 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund <eivind@yes.no> To: Greg Lehey <grog@lemis.com>, doc@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dos and Don'ts Message-ID: <19981007063912.50436@follo.net> In-Reply-To: <19981007133804.U27781@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 01:38:04PM %2B0930 References: <19981006071237.02443@follo.net> <19981006155341.C27781@freebie.lemis.com> <19981006083809.00946@follo.net> <19981007123122.O27781@freebie.lemis.com> <19981007053916.36507@follo.net> <19981007133804.U27781@freebie.lemis.com>
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On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 01:38:04PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > The most severe problem is the introduction of NAT, which it seems a > > large amount of people are doing. I regularly see people struggle > > with setting up natd (due to lacking network understanding, mostly), > > and people that have pppd running try to set up natd instead of > > switching to iij-ppp. This is a shame, both because setting up natd > > is a pain, and because natd will NAT wrongly for any packets coming > > before with dynamic IPs are assigned (and this is non-fixable). > > Hmm. I set up natd for the book as well, and I didn't have much > trouble. I haven't had problems, either, but a lot of users do. > At the time, I think it was the only game in town. Nope. ppp -alias was the only game in town for a while, then Ari took out the code from PPP to build natd, and then we dropped the duplication by creating libalias. The NAT code itself was originally written by Charles Mott for "ppp w/aliasing", with a number (4?) of the later releases done by yours truly (in cooperation with Charles). > I haven't been watching what Brian's put into userland PPP, but I'm > sure that we could find some reason to still want to use natd (for > example, its symbiosis with ipfw). Its symbiosis with ipfw is one of the prime reasons _not_ to use it. Besides, it doesn't symbiose too well with ipfw - it does, for instance, not exploit libalias' ability to allow active FTP and IRC DCC to pass through ipfw. > I still think that there's not enough pain in kernel PPP to warn > against using it. I did a quick poll among the people on #freebsd (as the set of intersection people that see the direct results on users and are easily available for me to ask). All that answered were in favour of keeping the warning, even the ones that use kernel ppp/natd themselves. I don't think I have any more arguments - it is just that my experience (in giving direct user support) indicate that it is a problem. > > However, I'll remove the statement if you accept that I give your > > phone-number to anybody that come asking me how to fix their problems > > with setting up natd to run with their already setup pppd (this is not > > more than two or three people each day so far) ;-) > > How come so many ask you? I haven't seen any worth talking about. I'm on #freebsd on IRC, and I'm listed in the man page (as one of the authors). It is the former that create the significant traffic, though. > Anyway, sure. Also point them at > http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/bsdbook2.htm :-) I regularly do. > >>> DON'T send questions about anything (beyond the exceptions noted > >>> above) to any mailing list you have not read at least two days > >>> of traffic from. Yes, this implies you should be or have been > >>> a member. > >> > >> I suppose so. We have a policy that non-members can post to > >> -questions; how would you factor that in ("you're allowed to, but it's > >> better not to"). > > > > The present text is > > > > DON'T send mail to any of the FreeBSD mailing lists not listed above > > (plus freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org) before you have read the > > s/plus/including/ Uhm, no - freebsd-newbies is not included in the list above. I don't like 'plus' either, but it is slightly better than 'and'. Any good alternative is welcome. > > mailing list you're thinking of mailing for at least a couple > > of days. Which types of mail that is OK for which list varies > > a lot, and it take a little while to pick up the 'culture' > > (even when you've read the charters). > > Yes, I suppose so. How about adding "the charters of some lists allow > you to send messages without being subscribed, but this doesn't make > it a good idea". Done. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message
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