Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 11:36:05 -0700 From: Doug Wellington <doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov> To: hackers@freebsd.org Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee, didier@aida.org Subject: Re: JDK 1.02 Message-ID: <9608241836.AA04073@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov>
next in thread | raw e-mail | index | archive | help
Me, then Nate:
>> look at lisp/scheme, ada, visual basic... [...]
>Most of these languages weren't written up in the press on a daily
>basis, and touted as the 'best of breed' in programming languages.
>Something will come along that's better in the future, but for now Java
>is *the* language.
Just like Coke is *the* soft drink, MacDonalds is *the* burger, Baywatch
is *the* tv show, Femstat 3 is *the* cure? (Should I go on?) Can we
only like things when the media tells us to? (And ALL things the media
tells us to?) Why do we attach ourselves to such ridiculousness? (I
thought we, the UNIX world, were about elegant solutions that work hand
in hand with other tools we have, and not about flavors of the day!)
[EEEEK, I hope I don't sound toooooo zealous there...]
>Java is C++ w/out pointers, w/out multiple inheritance, and the ability
>to run on multiple platforms w/out recompile. It's the 'ultimate' in
>portability, although M$ and others are trying to muddy the waters by
>making 'platform specific' extensions for it.
Hmmm... When *I* want portability, I look to Python and TCL... There
are always trade-offs, and I don't believe that there is any way Java
will be consistant across platforms (like Unix itself - "of course it's
standard, but we have modified it to make our version just a little
better..."). Hmmm, I wonder if we can extend autoconf for interpretting
Java on the fly?
>> Do we really want to be dependent upon some server somewhere for what are
>> really just throw-away viewers?
>Whose 'we' Kemosabe'? :)
ME, for one... "We" in general... The Public(tm) is too ignorant to
know any better, so since I'm the duly elected "daemon's advocate", I
represent all those who aren't here... ;-)
>For 'intranets' (the current buzzword which has replaced
>'enterprise-wide network), applets are a great way to go. You can leave
>the low powered PC on everyone's desk (maybe even a 'Network Computer')
>which runs applets which talk to the main server. However, you can have
>multiple 'servers'. The push for 'Data warehousing' and other
>meaningless names makes it easy to push for Java.
We're really getting to the big point that I see, and that is the fact
that there are two very distinct areas, 1) extension of the global www,
and 2) locally controlled ("secure"?) nets. As for the www, I personally
do not want to be transferring applets from parts unknown, even if I have
a supposedly robust vm running on my local machine. And about the local
stuff, I wonder if we wouldn't be better served with server side cgi
scripting...? One focal point, one script, central control, etc, and
if those PC's on everyone's desk are so "low powered", shouldn't we be
doing the hard work on the server? Or if we have sufficient power on
the local PC, shouldn't they be running a dedicated (efficient?) viewer
program instead of running an interpreter? And while I'm on this track,
if we ARE on a local secure net, why not run a more full-fledged, more
powerful interpreter like perl, python or tcl that already exists, instead
of waiting for some limited Java interpreter?
>For those zillions of programmers who have been doing Win32 programming
>(aka, the API of the day), Java is a way out.
Ah, so Java is the answer to the Win32 blues...! ;-) Visual C++ 4.2
doesn't support win32s anymore, so we know there is a way out. Microsoft
has already shown us the way... ;-) (Seriously though, I think we'd all
be better off honing our knowledge of the MFC instead of trying to switch
languages...)
>> Do we even have the bandwidth to do it?
>Java applets decreases bandwidth in many cases. There is no longer the
>need for 'server push', and instead you can get everything in one shot
>by using an applet.
Hmm, not sure I follow you here... If I have to transfer an applet AND
the data every time I want to view something, how is that less bandwidth
than if I am just transferring the data to be viewed by a program I already
have on my client machine?
>Java is much bigger than the WWW, especially if Sun has it's way.
And ActiveX will be bigger than both Sun and the WWW if Microsoft
has its way... [shrug]
========================================================================
Narvi wrote:
>One part of the game is Java Applications. Theoretically, a Java
>Application compiled on one plaform will run on any other platform, the
>source code should also display similar features - once written, it will
>compile everywhere. Or so they say :-)
Well, with tools like YACL, I can write C++ code that will compile
everywhere... (Especially if we put the same effort into extending
YACL as is being spent on Java...!) I use Python, and in reality (not
just theory) Python code DOES run on other platforms. Recent versions
of TCL also run multi-platform, and I think Perl also has interpreters
on a variety of platforms... It might be entertaining to have everyone
look into the problems encountered with multi-platform support with
those three languages... So, my point is, Java isn't anything special,
it's just neutered C++, Perl, Python and TCL... We already have all these
other tools, they're stable and established, and free!
==================================================================
Didier wrote:
>If java is well specified Perhaps that a group of people could start to
>write a Java clone: something like kaffe but with a BSD copyright.
>if some other people were interested I would be really happy to help in that
>task
Why not build upon existing tools? Like I mentioned before, we already
have Perl, Python, TCL, etc... What will Java give us that can't already
be done?
-Doug
...who is now wondering if he drank too much coffee this morning...
Doug Wellington
doug@sun1paztcn.wr.usgs.gov
System and Network Administrator
US Geological Survey, Tucson, AZ Project Office
According to proposed Federal guidelines, this message is a "non-record".
Hmm, I wonder if _everything_ I say is a "non-record"...?
FreeBSD and Apache - the best real tools for the virtual world!
Check out www.freebsd.org and www.apache.org...
Chuck - Lord of Darkness? Or Lord of Cuteness?
Want to link to this message? Use this URL: <https://mail-archive.FreeBSD.org/cgi/mid.cgi?9608241836.AA04073>