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Date:      Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:12:30 -0600
From:      Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>
To:        Robert Clark <res03db2@gte.net>
Cc:        Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>, Randell Jesup <rjesup@wgate.com>, Terry Lambert <tlambert@primenet.com>, Matt Dillon <dillon@earth.backplane.com>, Alfred Perlstein <bright@wintelcom.net>, josb@cncdsl.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: DJBDNS vs. BIND
Message-ID:  <15013.13982.277528.57592@guru.mired.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010306103744.D45802@darkstar.gte.net>
References:  <200102200122.SAA04466@usr05.primenet.com> <ybupugd2u4n.fsf@jesup.eng.tvol.net.jesup.eng.tvol.net> <3A934507.A0645CF3@softweyr.com> <ybug0gr3hsc.fsf@jesup.eng.tvol.net.jesup.eng.tvol.net> <15012.11507.801736.502035@guru.mired.org> <3AA4A110.5245FCD4@softweyr.com> <20010306103744.D45802@darkstar.gte.net>

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Robert Clark <res03db2@gte.net> types:
> 	Have you seen any intelligent discussion of
> the whole concept of whether to keep config info
> in flat files, or to use a bindery/database? (Something
> I could go read up on.)
> 	I often wonder if a standardized api for
> storing and retreiving config info would be a benefit
> to *BSD.

This came up as in that same discussion. It would almost certainly be
a benefit to have a standardized API for config files. Note that this
*is* a different question from the flat file/DBMs question. The
standardize API doesn't have to talk things in a binary format. You
could cram everything into S-expresisons, for instance.

The question is whether or not you can make all the config files
currently in use by FreeBSD comfortably fit through that API. For
instance, there are a lot of tables (crontab, printcap, passwd, group,
etc.) as well as some simple name/value pairs (rc.conf, etc.), as well
as things that are simply lists of commands (your typical firewall
config).

	<mike

> 	This whole subject seems like an unimaginably
> big can o worms.
> 
> 	Even the staunchest advocates of the bindery/
> registry don't get it completely right. (as far as I've
> seen anyway.)
> 
> 	Thanks, [RC]
> 
> 
> On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:34:24AM -0700, Wes Peters wrote:
> > Mike Meyer wrote:
> > > 
> > > Randell Jesup <rjesup@wgate.com> types:
> > > > Moved from -arch to -chat.
> > > > Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com> writes:
> > > > >We in the unix world have a well-founded aversion to storing configuration
> > > > >information in binary data stores that can't be accessed via ed(1) when
> > > > >the system is in single-user mode.  If we wanted to stuff all the system
> > > > >configuration into such a black hole, we could've done it with DBM data-
> > > > >bases more than a decade ago, quite easily.
> > > 
> > > Oddly enough, this exact suggestion - stuff all the configuration
> > > information in a DBM - came up on a private list I'm no not long
> > > ago. The suggestion came from someone very sharp, the goal being to
> > > focus more talent on making the DBM fast. The problem Wes mentioned
> > > prett much killed it at that point.
> > > 
> > > >         As someone said, vipw is a good counterexample.
> > > >         The above schemes do allow you to use ED (if you like) to edit
> > > > configuration files.  In one case it's totally free (even cp will work), in
> > > > the other you have to use some sort of vipw thing to invoke the editor and
> > > > make sure that the file is notified as changed (or integrate with the
> > > > editor in some automatic or semi-automatic way).
> > > 
> > > The critical issue isn't being able to use ed per se, it's working in
> > > single user mode, with no file systems mounted and no daemons
> > > running. How do your schemes deal with that requirement?
> > 
> > Text-to-dbm converters still work fine in single user mode, as long as 
> > they're robust to handle not having a daemon to talk to.  I even have one
> > application that rips configuration information out of a PgSQL database
> > and stuff it into a DBM database, on system startup and whenever the PgSQL 
> > table gets modified.
> > 
> > Ick.
> > 
> > -- 
> >             "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?"
> > 
> > Wes Peters                                                         Softweyr LLC
> > wes@softweyr.com                                           http://softweyr.com/
> > 
> 
--
Mike Meyer <mwm@mired.org>			http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.

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